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	<title>Comments for Game Design the Wrong Way</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.design.wrong.net/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.design.wrong.net</link>
	<description>Musings on game design</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Positive and Negative Feedback by driver44</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=14#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>driver44</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=14#comment-47</guid>
		<description>The plot is basically an excuse to string along sight gags, puns, jokes based on Asian stereotypes, and general farce. ,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The plot is basically an excuse to string along sight gags, puns, jokes based on Asian stereotypes, and general farce. ,</p>
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		<title>Comment on Designing decisions by Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=22#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 21:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=22#comment-45</guid>
		<description>Hi, nice posts there :-) thank's for the interesting information</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, nice posts there <img src='http://www.design.wrong.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> thank&#8217;s for the interesting information</p>
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		<title>Comment on Designing decisions by Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=22#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 18:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=22#comment-44</guid>
		<description>Your blog is great, hugely insightful. Please tell me you haven't given up on this!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your blog is great, hugely insightful. Please tell me you haven&#8217;t given up on this!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Balance is not Equality by Chris Paff</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=11#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Paff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 10:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=11#comment-43</guid>
		<description>As an avid Super Smash Bros. player, I'd just to nitpick a bit. :p

When playing Smash purely for fun, items of course are either used or not used depending on personal preference, and stages are similarly banned or not banned based on personal preference.

However, it becomes troublesome for tournament play:

The items-off method, as you pointed out, does have the equilibrium problem on some stages, which unfortunately means that those stages must be banned. However, the items-on method has its own issues:

1. Items, when available, are typically much more powerful than the characters' built-in attacks, which means that they dominate the built-in attacks. Furthermore, the number of ways to use an item are typically much fewer than the number of ways to use built-in attacks, which means that the items actually dominate more options than they add, reducing the depth of the game. Of course, items are only available part of the time during the match, but during those times the depth is reduced, which is generally frowned upon. (I suppose the overall complexity with items is higher, however.)

2. Items spawn at random times, at random locations, and have random effects. This means that the outcomes of matches between players of similar ability will frequently be determined by randomness from the item spawns. In tournaments, randomized outcomes are of course frowned upon heavily.

So really, what this means is that, for tournaments, both the items-off approach and the items-on approach have significant flaws, but generally players consider the items-off approach to be better overall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an avid Super Smash Bros. player, I&#8217;d just to nitpick a bit. :p</p>
<p>When playing Smash purely for fun, items of course are either used or not used depending on personal preference, and stages are similarly banned or not banned based on personal preference.</p>
<p>However, it becomes troublesome for tournament play:</p>
<p>The items-off method, as you pointed out, does have the equilibrium problem on some stages, which unfortunately means that those stages must be banned. However, the items-on method has its own issues:</p>
<p>1. Items, when available, are typically much more powerful than the characters&#8217; built-in attacks, which means that they dominate the built-in attacks. Furthermore, the number of ways to use an item are typically much fewer than the number of ways to use built-in attacks, which means that the items actually dominate more options than they add, reducing the depth of the game. Of course, items are only available part of the time during the match, but during those times the depth is reduced, which is generally frowned upon. (I suppose the overall complexity with items is higher, however.)</p>
<p>2. Items spawn at random times, at random locations, and have random effects. This means that the outcomes of matches between players of similar ability will frequently be determined by randomness from the item spawns. In tournaments, randomized outcomes are of course frowned upon heavily.</p>
<p>So really, what this means is that, for tournaments, both the items-off approach and the items-on approach have significant flaws, but generally players consider the items-off approach to be better overall.</p>
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		<title>Comment on AI and the Single Player Game by Michael Ralston</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=10#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Ralston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=10#comment-42</guid>
		<description>For any such decision graph (IF the game is zero-sum), a mixed solution can be constructed that is unbeatable -  where "unbeatable" means that the expected value of the BEST opposing strategy is 0.

That said, your example is non-zero-sum, and the optimal strategy is to negotiate an alternation of production and defense.

One way to compute an unbeatable strategy in a zero-sum game is simply to compute frequencies of each action such as to have an EV of at least 0 against all the pure strategies - in that case, no mixed strategy can possibly improve outcomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For any such decision graph (IF the game is zero-sum), a mixed solution can be constructed that is unbeatable -  where &#8220;unbeatable&#8221; means that the expected value of the BEST opposing strategy is 0.</p>
<p>That said, your example is non-zero-sum, and the optimal strategy is to negotiate an alternation of production and defense.</p>
<p>One way to compute an unbeatable strategy in a zero-sum game is simply to compute frequencies of each action such as to have an EV of at least 0 against all the pure strategies - in that case, no mixed strategy can possibly improve outcomes.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Complexity vs. Depth by Alexwebmaster</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=13#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexwebmaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=13#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Hello webmaster 
I would like to share with you a link to your site 
write me here preonrelt@mail.ru</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello webmaster<br />
I would like to share with you a link to your site<br />
write me here <a href="mailto:preonrelt@mail.ru">preonrelt@mail.ru</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Opportunity Cost by John Rupert</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=8#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>John Rupert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 03:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=8#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Spazi pubblicitari sul tuo sito : design.wrong.net
Gentile Proprietario del Sito,
Siamo interessati a comprare spazi pubblicitari sul vostro sito per i nostri clienti.  Se questo fosse possibile, vi prego di contattarmi per discutere la proposta nei dettagli .

Grazie e cordiali saluti,

John Rupert</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spazi pubblicitari sul tuo sito : design.wrong.net<br />
Gentile Proprietario del Sito,<br />
Siamo interessati a comprare spazi pubblicitari sul vostro sito per i nostri clienti.  Se questo fosse possibile, vi prego di contattarmi per discutere la proposta nei dettagli .</p>
<p>Grazie e cordiali saluti,</p>
<p>John Rupert</p>
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		<title>Comment on AI and the Single Player Game by Archon Shiva</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=10#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>Archon Shiva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=10#comment-38</guid>
		<description>@cody: No.  Because even assuming that your strategy worked out (which it doesn't, see paragraph two), someone could then out-solve you by playing a expansion-heavy game, and beat you overall, (which doesn't work either, because it gets absolutely clobbered by a rushing game).

The 70% rush strategy wins because because winning with rush is a lot more significant than winning with anything else: each time you rush an expanding opponent, you get ahead by 2 (+1 to his -1) points, whereas defending against one only nets you 0.3.  So you have to successfully defend his rush seven times to make up for the one time he makes it.  Your moves won't be so perfectly matched to his, so it won't work.

That said, I'm pretty sure a double-blind game can't be "solved" in the game theory sense anyway; the best you can do is find an unexploitable strategy.  I guess I would (simplistically) define that as a strategy that can only be beat by one that loses to pure randomness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@cody: No.  Because even assuming that your strategy worked out (which it doesn&#8217;t, see paragraph two), someone could then out-solve you by playing a expansion-heavy game, and beat you overall, (which doesn&#8217;t work either, because it gets absolutely clobbered by a rushing game).</p>
<p>The 70% rush strategy wins because because winning with rush is a lot more significant than winning with anything else: each time you rush an expanding opponent, you get ahead by 2 (+1 to his -1) points, whereas defending against one only nets you 0.3.  So you have to successfully defend his rush seven times to make up for the one time he makes it.  Your moves won&#8217;t be so perfectly matched to his, so it won&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m pretty sure a double-blind game can&#8217;t be &#8220;solved&#8221; in the game theory sense anyway; the best you can do is find an unexploitable strategy.  I guess I would (simplistically) define that as a strategy that can only be beat by one that loses to pure randomness.</p>
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		<title>Comment on AI and the Single Player Game by cody</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=10#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>cody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=10#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Nice article.

"in this case, choosing to rush frequently, defend infrequently, and expand rarely."

If you actually solve that game, isn't optimal strategy more like defend frequently (70%), rush infrequently (20%), expand rarely (10%)?  Rush is so strong that you should weight your choices towards beating it . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.</p>
<p>&#8220;in this case, choosing to rush frequently, defend infrequently, and expand rarely.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you actually solve that game, isn&#8217;t optimal strategy more like defend frequently (70%), rush infrequently (20%), expand rarely (10%)?  Rush is so strong that you should weight your choices towards beating it . . .</p>
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		<title>Comment on Complexity vs. Depth by cody</title>
		<link>http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=13#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>cody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=13#comment-36</guid>
		<description>Nice article.

"In some cases, you can increase complexity by removing choices. "

Think you meant increase depth by removing choices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.</p>
<p>&#8220;In some cases, you can increase complexity by removing choices. &#8221;</p>
<p>Think you meant increase depth by removing choices.</p>
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